forgottenrealmsfandomcom-20200223-history
Talk:Magic
The article is outdated potentially, with the new ruleset and all. * Yep, BUT until someone writes more information WITHOUT removing all the relevant stuff, it's fine. Remember this wiki includes 1st edition, 2nd edition, 3rd edition 3.5 edition and 4th edition stuff. All is relevant. Hurtzbad 10:28, May 14, 2010 (UTC) * is there a reason this is written in past tense? It makes it sound like magic doesn't exist anymore... :Most articles on this wiki follow the Forgotten Realms Wiki:Past tense policy, because sooner or later, everything new becomes history. This article has yet to be cleaned up and updated to even post-Spellplague times, and for that I apologize. It's a vast subject and no one has yet found the time or inclination to tackle the job. Feel free to create an account and pitch in wherever your fancy takes you. —Moviesign (talk) 18:42, June 28, 2015 (UTC) What alternative schools are canon? 2nd edition Player's Option: Spells & Magic presents alternative systems of magic: schools of effect - with their specialists being elementalists, dimensionalists, force mages, mentalists (the magic-user, not the psionicist specialisation, and not the Netheril version), and shadow mages - and schools of thaumaturgy - with their specialists being alchemists (not the craftsmen), artificers (not(?) the gnome/Gond worshiper version), geometers, song mages, and wild mages. Some of these reappear in 3rd edition as prestige classes, or some such. I found elementalists, shadow mages and wild mages in Realms sources. Can anyone shed more light on which of the others are or are not canon? Thanks a lot! Daranios (talk) 20:00, May 3, 2016 (UTC) :Shadow magic (not Shadow Weave magic) has been well-developed in the Realms, in all editions. Admittedly, I built that out of assorted mentions of a distinct "shadow magic" and the 3.5 system. I don't know the 2e shadow mage class, but I assume it ties into the 2e-era mentions. — BadCatMan (talk) 23:40, May 3, 2016 (UTC) Here is what I've been able to dig up: *''Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms'' has a few short paragraphs on spellsong and says that the mightiest spellsingers can achieve the spellcasting of a mid-level wizard or sorcerer. At the very end of the book he mentions "plume magic", "table magic", "truename magic", and "wild magic" as a few of the types of magic known to ancient cultures. Alchemy is not presented as a system of magic, but more akin to potion making, I think. *The dimensionalist is described in Dragon #229 and says to consult the Manual of the Planes 1st edition or the Planescape Campaign Setting about travel to extraplanar worlds. The spell list pulls one spell from a Forgotten Realms source, The Drow of the Underdark, so there is a tenuous connection. *The geometer is described in the Complete Arcane and as far as I can tell has no connection to the Realms. *Elementalists definitely exist in the Realms. See Chechu al Khish for example. *Wild mages definitely exist in the Realms. They are mentioned as being hunted down by the Uthgardt tribal warriors in The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier. *A "force mage" is another name for an Argent Savant, a prestige class from Complete Arcane with no apparent connection to the Realms that I can find so far. *"Vilified by the Mulan, the artificers of Imaskar were mighty wizards who built great portals to other worlds in order to carry off thousands of slaves from distant planes." You can decide if that sentence means that artificers existed in the Realms. :-D —Moviesign (talk) 01:43, May 4, 2016 (UTC) :Spellsinger is a prestige class in Races of Faerûn, which practices "an ancient elven bardic tradition" and "spellsong", and Danilo Thann may be one that, so it seems well-established. :The "Class Chronicles" articles, here, put a lot of 3e systems in the Realms. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:22, May 4, 2016 (UTC) : Plumaweavers and hishnashapers exist in Maztica. : Also, chronomancy exists in the Realms as well. : There are also runecasters. : ~ Lhynard (talk) 12:06, May 4, 2016 (UTC) ::Thanks a lot for all the info! So I will add from Spells & Magic (briefly) the schools of song and wild magic, because they are established, as well as artfice and dimension, as they already have related articles and are tenously established. And chronomancy. Don't know much about the others mentioned. Daranios (talk) 19:02, May 4, 2016 (UTC) : In 1e and 2e sources, e.g., p. 173 of Volo's Guide to the North, Silverymoon is said to contain Miresk's School of Thaumaturgy, but I'm not sure what "thaumaturgy" means here. (In 3e, a thaumaturgist is a divine magic prestige class that is essentially a summoner class for clerics.) ~ Lhynard (talk) 08:07, July 20, 2017 (UTC) ::"Thaumaturgy" means "miracle-working" or "wonder-working" and is generally used as just another word for magic (arcane or divine). In 3e, the thaumaturgist class completely misunderstands it, the wonderworker has the same name via translation but no flavour beyond "exalted good spellcaster" (arcane, divine, or psionic). They don't seem to suggest any consistent theme like I found with shadow magic. I suspect in D&D it's still just a fancy name for magic (like sorcery was before 3e). ::The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier doesn't offer anything more about Miresk's school, and it's probably a school for teaching general magic (unlike Arken's Invocatorium, which focuses on invocations/evocations). — BadCatMan (talk) 12:26, July 20, 2017 (UTC) :::I would have thought exactly the same except for this bit on p.55: :::::The university... teaches all manners of magic and wizardly knowledge '''with individual colleges for each specialist schools' sic.'' :::This seems to imply that Miresk's School focuses on a specialist school of some sort as does the Invocatorium. :::~ Lhynard (talk) 16:33, July 20, 2017 (UTC) ::::On page 53, it says "Miresk's school still exists, but now it is a part of the University of Silverymoon" implying the school and thus the name predates incorporation into the university. "School of Thaumaturgy" might be an artifact name; it may teach a specific school now after incorporation, but this isn't necessarily reflected in the old name. In fact, while there's a college for each of school of magic, the School of Thaumaturgy isn't stated to have become a college and is still described as a school. It could be a different or lesser kind of teaching institution within the university. Miresk now heads the entire university, but has no specialization. (I keep think he's a generalist.) The FRCS 3e and Silver Marches don't even mention the specific spell-school colleges, even retcons the Invocatorium as a sorcerer school. So, I think it's very inconclusive. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:16, July 21, 2017 (UTC) :::::In University settings, schools and colleges are synonymous, being the subsections of the broader university. That being said, I agree with you that it is very inconclusive either way. :::::As far as the School being absent from 3e, it was actually covered in a suppliment to Silver Marches online: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20030212rt. Yes, Miresks is indeed still a generalist wizard, so that strongly supports your points. :::::Thanks for the discussion! :::::~ Lhynard (talk) 13:31, July 21, 2017 (UTC) ::::::I think the terminology might vary; in Australian universities, colleges are places for students to live, schools are where actual teaching happens. Like with citadels in D&D, one can't rely on terminology. :) ::::::Huh, that Rand's article gave some significant new lore to the place. It confirms my theory it's a lesser school too. :) — BadCatMan (talk) 01:15, July 22, 2017 (UTC) :::::::Yes, it did. ~ Lhynard (talk) 03:08, July 23, 2017 (UTC) For anyone interested, I just discovered another flavor of magic, sanctified magic, described in the 3e FR book Champions of Valor. ~ Lhynard (talk) 18:47, January 1, 2018 (UTC) :Which is from Book of Exalted Deeds for reference. — BadCatMan (talk) 02:08, January 2, 2018 (UTC) We also might want to add the elemental masteries of the Wu jen of Kara-Tur. These are earth, fire, metal, water, and wood. ~ Lhynard (talk) 06:19, February 2, 2019 (UTC)